Feminism: It’s Good For Men, Too

Time for a pop quiz, everyone!

1) What is feminism?

A) A global conspiracy against men with the goal of making them sperm/cash machines only. B) A bunch of unattractive women angry because they can’t get laid. C) An umbrella term for a series of movements dating back hundreds of years devoted to the equality of women.

2) Which of these is NOT a feminist goal?

A) Equality of pay between men and women to better strengthen the economy and to make a woman equally capable of being the breadwinner for her family. B) Control over reproduction so that every child is a wanted child. C) Ensuring that men have no rights to their children in custody battles, only financial obligations.

3) Feminism is good for:

A) All women. B) Hairy lesbians only. C) Everybody!

If you picked all C’s, congratulations, you pass!

Many people who are diametrically opposed to the feminist movement believe that it is a ‘war between the sexes,’ and that feminists are campaigning for their rights at the expense of men’s rights. This is what has led to the rise of a men’s rights movement. However, this movement is unnecessary. Feminism is not about hurting men, but about empowering women to be equal to them in all areas of society. I admit that there are a few valid concerns typically championed by men–mostly in the family law area. However–and I will speak more to this later–when we break down the valid concerns about gender assumptions in custody battles, it turns out that feminism’s focus on freeing everyone from traditional gender roles means that the feminist movement and the legitimate father’s rights advocates are working toward the same goal.

But first: what the hell is feminism, anyway?

It’s an easy umbrella term for any pro-women’s rights movement, but feminism is not a monolith and never has been. It takes different forms in different countries, being closely intertwined with local culture. Feminism is currently widely accepted to have three “waves,” although there is a staggering diversity in ideology even among the waves. The first wave is generally defined as being focused on the legal discrimination against women–for example, the suffragettes were first-wave feminists. The second wave arose during the 1960s, and broadened the debate to questions of inequality in sexuality, workplaces and the family. The third wave came in response to the second wave, and is widely believed to have risen in response to the “Feminist Sex Wars,” a series of debates in the late 1970s and early 1980s between feminists about pornography, sex work, the role of trans women and kink, among other issues. The third wave also shifted the discussion to how the feminist movement excluded women of color, and began considering the idea of intersectionality.

There’s no such thing as one feminist ideology. There have been many feminist activists who were deeply flawed, who furthered the cause while also supporting some dodgy things. (Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood and the woman who coined the term ‘birth control,’ supported eugenics.) She and I are tied together by our desire to create a world where women have equal rights and opportunities, and are considered human beings worthy of respect. So, when I talk about how feminism benefits men just as it benefits women, I’m talking in the most general terms possible. I respect what Margaret Sanger did for women, but just because we are both feminists does not mean her ideology speaks for me.

President Obama is a feminist

So, just how does feminism–a women’s movement–benefit men? And how can men be a part of it?

I am going to focus on three things: 1) the breaking down of traditional gender roles benefits men as much as women, 2) economic empowerment of women is good for men, and 3) control over reproduction is good for men, too.

Breaking down of traditional gender roles benefits men as much as women.

There are expectations of what a man should be and what a woman should be in society. They differ from country to country, but one common thread is the man as the provider and the woman as the caregiver. You’re not a man if you can’t provide for your family, right? If you’re a “pussy” (feminine), that’s bad, but if you have “balls” (masculine), that’s a compliment. Men are socialized from birth to fear being womanly. If a man shows emotions, he is not a man. If he doesn’t like to play or watch sports, he’s not a man. If he would rather stay home with his children, he’s not a man.

Feminism, in general, is not okay with that. We tend to dislike the association of our gender with weakness and frivolity and less prestige, and we often try to have “women’s work”–nursing, teaching, tending to children–be given the same value as “men’s work.” If a man wants to be a nurse, we should consider that an honorable path for him. Men should be free to be themselves, regardless of how close or far that is from the gender stereotype of a man. Same for women.

Photo courtesy of Nirmukta

Now I’m going to bring up men’s rights activists. I want to link to this essay on men’s movements by Michael Flood, Ph.D., which breaks down just what they are and why they’re problematic. By blaming feminists and explicitly endorsing sexism, the valid point–that the family court system relies too much on the gender stereotype of woman as caregiver/man as provider–is lost. If feminism succeeds in its goal of breaking down traditional gender roles, then the legal system will have to consider each case on an individual level of what’s best for the children. Maybe it is best if the mother is the primary caregiver while the father pays. Maybe it’s the other way around. In this case, father’s rights advocates should actually team up with feminists to create a legal system that is free of gender stereotyping.

I don’t want to get into a detailed discussion of gay men and how gender roles hurt them, simply because it is something that deserves its own article, but I do think it’s important to mention that homophobia against gay men is often rooted in the degradation of the feminine and disgust over the (false) idea that a man is somehow becoming a woman.

Economic empowerment of women helps men.

First of all, it is a myth that women only recently started holding down jobs. Throughout history, most women had to work. (When I say work, I mean work at a paying job as convenient shorthand, this is not to imply that I think that housewives did not work.) The difference is that now women are demanding to be paid equally.

Economic empowerment of women is good for economies as a whole. Women make up one-half of the pool of potential talent, and one of the biggest factors in whether an economy grows is having a wide pool of talent.

In a developing country, investing in women is good for the whole economy. From a report by the World Bank:

In the past decades, the health and education levels of women and girls in developing countries have improved a great deal–in many cases they are catching up to men and boys. But no such progress has been seen in economic opportunity: women continue to consistently trail men in formal labor force participation, access to credit, entrepreneurship rates, income levels, and inheritance and ownership rights. This is neither fair nor smart economics: Under-investing in women limits development, slows down poverty reduction and economic growth.

In developed countries, it also frees men from the burden of being the sole provider. The cost of living has increased dramatically–to see that this is true, we just have to look at the cost of living in 1960 and compare it to today. Many people might blame feminism and the rise of the two-working-parent family for this, but that shows a weak understanding of economics–there’s no one cause for it. In addition, many households throughout history, especially among poorer families, had a woman who worked.

Let’s say you are a young man with a wife and a baby. The three of you have to eat, have to buy diapers, etc. Lets say your dream is to be an artist of some kind. If your wife can work and bring in a salary comparable to what a man in a similar field brings in, the financial burden on you is eased. You are not forced to be a lawyer or a banker simply because there is no other way to support your family. Let’s say you later on get divorced. If you’re opposed to alimony in principle, the best way to avoid paying it is to have a wife who does not need it because she is not reliant on you for financial stability. All you have to do, as a man, is be able to accept women into the workplace and treat them like equals.

Reproductive control benefits everyone involved in heterosexual relationships.

This one should be a no-brainer. Feminism has played a huge role in making birth control acceptable. Do you know that birth control used to be illegal in the United States? It wasn’t until 1965 that a landmark Supreme Court case, Griswold v. Connecticut, enshrined the right to conception. Feminism was hugely instrumental in making birth control widely accepted. So, if you are a heterosexual male who has ever had sex for any reason besides procreation, if you’ve ever been able to relax post-coital knowing that your sex partner was on the pill, you have benefited from feminism. In the United States, birth control is under attack. If you as a man want to be able to have control over procreation, you should be a feminist.

This all ignores a fundamental fact: if you are a man who has any women in his life–a mother, a sister, a girlfriend, a wife, a cousin, a friend–and you care about this woman, you should be a feminist or a feminist ally. How can you claim to love someone or care about someone and at the same time advocate against a movement dedicated to giving them human rights? President Obama (who I believe has been a strong friend to women) often talks about how, when it comes to women’s issues, he thinks about his daughters, and what he wants for them. During the Sandra Fluke-Rush Limbaugh incident–when Ms. Fluke was viciously attacked by Rush Limbaugh for daring to participate in public discourse on birth control, President Obama called Ms. Fluke to offer support. When asked why he did that, he said:

I thought about Malia and Sasha, and one of the things I want them to do as they get older is to engage in issues they care about, even ones I may not agree with them on. I want them to be able to speak their mind in a civil and thoughtful way, and I don’t want them attacked or called horrible names because they’re being good citizens.

For women, feminism and women’s issues are real and personal. This is about our day-to-day lives. For many men, it’s an intellectual exercise that they can leave at the door. The way to bridge this gap is for men to frame feminist issues by thinking about them in relation to the women they care about.

So, is there room for men in the feminist movement? I believe so. I would say that the rules men should go by is that often, you will need to take a back seat. Don’t come into a women’s rights movement and try to impose your will. Understand that your knowledge of sexism is second-hand, and most women experience it first-hand. You will never know what it’s like to experience sexism first-hand, so take into account what women are saying. Don’t try to invalidate a woman’s experience. If I am talking about street harassment, you can’t tell me that it shouldn’t bother me or it’s not a big deal–it does bother me and it is a big deal. I know this because of my experiences with it. I also ask men who want to be involved in gender equality not to get defensive. Understand that ‘men’ as an institution is different from you as an individual.

I don’t think any woman has an obligation to educate a man, or to not get emotional. While Todd Akin saying incredibly dumb things about rape might be so absurd that it’s funny to you, for us, it’s deeply scary. The rhetoric in the United States right now perpetuates lies about our bodies, and it has terrifying ramifications for us. Sometimes, we’re going to get upset about it, and about how hard it is for you to truly get what it’s like to be a victim of sexism. Understand that while there are several deeply alarming societal ills that affect men, feminism is dominated by the issues that primarily affect women. That does not mean that we think the other problems aren’t real. I’m talking about things like homelessness, suicide, high rates of incarceration, and men being raped and abused. These are absolutely things that society needs to address, but it’s not a flaw of feminism that we focus on women’s issues. I can be an advocate for prison reform and also a feminist. We need to work together to better humanity.

If it upsets you to think that your ideas and help might be dismissed because of your gender, remember this: women experience that every day, everywhere they go. If the very thought of that makes you upset, you should be identifying as a feminist/feminist ally.

However, I do think that if we choose to be feminist educators and activists, we should do our best to engage calmly with well-intentioned men. I don’t think there’s any moral imperative to do so, but I do think it’s more realistic to think that we can get further by doing our best to treat these men with intellectual respect. However, I will have no sympathy for men who a) come at me with obviously entrenched sexist ideas and talk over me and b) men who don’t give me that same respect back. I simply mean that there is room for male allies, and we should understand that these male allies might not have the most complete understanding.

In conclusion, I’d like to link to a study done by Rutgers University that challenged the idea that feminism is incompatible with romance. The study determined:

Using self-reported feminism and perceived partners’ feminism as predictors of relationship health, results revealed that having a feminist partner was linked to healthier relationships for women. Additionally, men with feminist partners reported greater relationship stability and sexual satisfaction in the online survey.

There you have it: feminists and male allies of feminism have better sex and are happier in relationships overall.

Do you think men have benefited from feminism? Is there a place in the feminist movement for men? Join the discussion below!

Written by Jess Mary Aloe
Follow her on Twitter!

Opinions stated in our editorials do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Feminspire and its staff as a whole, but instead reflect the opinions of the writer.

http://www.floralinguist.com/ Kaya

I LOVE THIS.
Brenna McCaffrey

This is very well argued. (If only MRAs would listen!)
- VoiceOfReason555
  
  MRA’s see right through the diversion that this article is. If only feminists would listen to MRA’s, instead of undermining them (after all, men in general listened to feminists for decades).
  - http://www.robotsandlace.com/ Jess Mary
    
    I listen to MRA who I believe to genuinely be working for gender equality. I don’t listen to the kind of MRA that the Southern Poverty Law Center has labelled as hate groups. I wouldn’t listen to the KKK’s opinion on racism.
    - VoiceOfReason555
      
      Feminists are not for gender equality either, so why should MRA’s listen to them?
      - majorstranger
        
        We are though. Did you even read the article? Are you afraid that all the scary womenz are going to take over the world and soon you’ll feel what we’ve been feeling for centuries? Shit, I’d be scary too. It sucks.
      - Web
        
        “What we’ve been feeling for centuries.” You aren’t the only ones who were screwed over by traditional gender roles. It was considered immoral to send a woman off to war, but a man was expected to do it.
        
        Women weren’t treated like slaves in the old gender role. It’s more comparable to children. They were treated as second-class citizens, but were granted the same protections as children.
        
        I thought that was the whole point of this article: Talking about how old gender roles oppress us both.
        
        So really, this “Oh you don’t know what it’s like. You dont’ have REAL problems” B.S. is unneccesary. And if anything, it’s the same arguments many men made to devalue women’s problems at first.
        
        Do you really want to sound like that?
      - majorstranger
        
        You don’t know what it’s like though, but that isn’t the same as saying you don’t have real problems. It’s so baffling how you have to make everything About You.
        
        And wow, you used to be the only ones allowed to go to war. I see that still affects your day-to-day life OH WAIT…it’s completely irrelevant. Women have come very far with equal rights, but we still get treated like shit and live in constant fear (I know I do). You’ll never have to worry about not walking home after it’s dark or being forced to pay for a cab because taking the subway alone past 10pm just isn’t an option. THIS IS STILL HAPPENING. We would like it to stop.
        
        If you don’t give a shit about how we feel and our struggles, then why are you here? This is a safe space for women, by women, to discuss their struggles as women. It’s called “Feminspire” for fucks sake. If you don’t want to support us, there’s a whole entire world/society/etc. for you to go to that will support you. Just let us be, bro.
      - Fawn
        
        I completely agree, Majorstranger. I find it unbelievable that we actually still have to explain this stuff.
      - McGauth925
        
        Yes, and you USED to be treated like chattel. That doesn’t stop women from telling us about that regularly.
        
        And, at least in the US, women seldom are. But men still feel called upon to risk their lives and well-being far more than women do, as shown by the stats of casualties in recent wars, as well as do the stats on who’s most often killed and injured on the job –OOPs, I wasn’t supposed to mention men’s issues. So, yes, THAT is about us, as it should be.
        
        But, I really would like to see rape go away. While it’s in no way comparable to what women have to deal with, even men would be a lot happier if rapists didn’t cause women to fear all men.
        
        About people not agreeing with your every position and belief, the article WAS written with men in mind, and put out there on the net for us to see. That makes these postings fair game for men who don’t necessarily think the same way you do.
        
        And, I’ll let you in on an obvious secret. Most men have no problem with equality. What they have a problem with is, they think women are united and hugely powerful and that the pendulum is swinging past the middle point. Women think it’s nowhere near the mid point, and that men hold all the power. To men, that looks like women have self-serving reasons to deny the power and impact that women have, and that they condone behaviors on the part of women that they condemn on the part of men. To women, I think, men don’t take responsibility for the results of the power that men have always had over women. And, most men think, “I wasn’t there. It wasn’t me. In MY life, women hate men, and never stop telling us that men hate women.”
        
        As you see in places like this, it never stops.
        
        This makes me think I need to listen to women more, without arguing or interrupting. Still, I’d like the same thing from women, whether or not they think men deserve that.
      - Fawn
        
        I don’t see how you think that old feminism has completely abolished traditional gender roles. To clarify, they gave us the freedom to vote, then the freedom to get a job .
        We still need to work on gender roles, which yes, are harmful to both men and women, and yes, still exist today.
      - Sun
        
        Yes, someone wrote and article and it must be right!
        
        Because your passive aggressiveness doesn’t show through:
        
        “Oh we been oppressed for thousands of years. Good to know you will be able to know what it is like (for several centuries).”
        
        Listen. Just come out and say that you don’t like men and you want to become dominant after centuries of oppression. At least I would have more respect for you due to honestly.
      - McGauth925
        
        I hate it when people try to tell another person what that other person really thinks. You ascribe mind-reading powers to yourself. Do you find that other people can usually read your mind? I don’t.
      - http://www.floralinguist.com/ Kaya
        
        Source?
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        Source? Read the above comment by majorstranger.
        
        She speaks of women going to “take over the world” and make me feel what she has been feeling for centuries. This insinuates that she believes that she is going to oppress men, in the same we she believes (falsely) that men have oppressed women.
        
        That not NOT speak gender equality to me.
      - majorstranger
        
        Are you being purposely dense? I ask if you’re afraid of something so that means that it’s what I want to happen or what is going to happen? WHAT IS LOGIC?!
        
        I once, in a similarly condescending tone, asked my boyfriend if he was afraid of a not-so-scary, fantastical zombie movie. That doesn’t mean the zombie apocalypse is nigh.
        
        Please stop twisting everybody’s words around to create sad, haphazard examples of your delusions.
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        Yes, you insinuated that it would happen. Do not change the situation around. Do not mince with words.
        
        You also stated that men would “…feel what we’ve been feeling for centuries?” This is a strong indication that you are not concerned with mens rights because you dismiss them, hence you are only concerned for womens issues.
        
        If you are only concerned with womens issues, and if you are a feminist, than that provides ample evidence for my original statement that feminists are not for gender equality.
      - majorstranger
        
        I am not dismissing them and I am not mincing words. Having a discussion with you is very tiring because you spend the majority of the time twisting around everything anyone else says and then shouting at them to be direct and not mince words. It’s extraordinary.
        
        I am concerned with the issues of all people and want equality for everyone. I want the world to operate on an even playing field. I do not want any group to have world domination. Feminists are not the diabolical, plotting Bond villains that you seem to think we are. THE END.
      - Siobhan
        
        Why does advocating for women’s rights men we’re sexist? That is an inaccurate assumption and an all-too-common sweeping generalization.
      - Fawn
        
        The concept that a group can exist to benefit a universally unprivileged group is completely new to them.
      - McGauth925
        
        Right, ‘cuz we’ve never heard of the Women’s Movement – a group that exists to benefit a universally unprivileged group, and has for a very long time.
        
        And, I still think that the fact that we now have a VAWA, but not a VAMA,, when men are assaulted twice as often as women are, and when women assault men – NOT sexually – as often as men assault women ties into the old women and children first, Titanic scenario. We care more about women. Although that’s referred to as benevolent sexism, it sure looks like a privilege from here. To me, it’s a very fine distinction, and a rose by any other name, etc., etc.
      - McGauth925
        
        VAWA, Men are twice as likely to be assaulted as women are, and – I’m told that it’s sexist and misogynistic to say this – but there are hundreds of studies that show that women assault men – physically, not sexually – about as often as men assault women. So, publicizing the hell out of assaults on women, and omitting assaults on men, increases distrust and hatred of men. That very much feels like unfair propaganda, aimed at helping women, at a cost to men.
        
        Being told that we have to support the children that women had a choice to abort, or give up for adoption, or leave on a hospital step – that’s never going to feel fair. Karen De Crow said the same thing. But, most women want men to be bound to support the children that they, themselves, were free to be free of. Our freedom would conflict with your freedom, so most women don’t want to see men gain that. So, reproductive rights – which, I have to admit, are being threatened by the GOP and the fundamentalist types – for women only. Men need not apply.
        
        Being told how unfair education is to women, with the poor performance of males and the lower rates of college entrance being blamed entirely on males – that doesn’t seem fair and right.
        
        It’s often a matter of the story we’re told. Women’s issues are everywhere, while issues for men are, comparatively, ignored. The notion that women have so many issues that, comparatively, men’s should be ignored, pretty much leads to men’s issues being ignored. We don’t like that.
        
        Being told that the hatred shown by MR guys is inexcusable, while that of 2nd wave feminists IS excusable – that doesn’t seem fair, either. It feels like an excuse to completely ignore issues that men think deserve attention from women, just as women think their issues deserve attention from men.
        
        Equal access to jobs, equal pay for equal work – in fact general equality all the way around – really not a problem for most men. The issue – and it really is hard for us to see if it’s just a prejudice, because it’s so much in the interest of women to convince us it is – is fairness. Surprising, really. We just want the whole truth told, and not just that part that appeals to women.
        
        And, we’re afraid we really are the aholes you keep telling us we are. Women never stop telling us we’re what’s wrong with the world. And, they NEVER, EVER tell us what we do that’s good and right, unless it was there idea. (That last one *might* be a tad prejudiced.)
Phoebe Eccles

this is excellent
- http://www.robotsandlace.com/ Jess Mary
  
  thanks phoebe!
Sarah

While I agree with most of what I read on this article (I haven’t quite
finished it, as I am at work and have to skim during my break), it is
untrue that men will never know sexism first hand – it is just a lot
less prevalent. I have male friends, both gay and straight, who have
complained of situations in which they were discriminated against
because of their gender. It is mainly different types of sexist
behavior that victimize men. Saying a man cannot be raped, for example,
is a type of sexism.
- http://www.robotsandlace.com/ Jess Mary
  
  this is actually a fair point. yes, men can experience sexism (which is different than being discriminated against because of their gender.) saying a man cannot be raped (because only women can get raped) is definitely a form of sexism.
  
  however, I still think that men will never understand first hand what it’s like to be a woman and how women feel and carry the constant sexism we feel and see around us. note: I’m not saying they can’t understand, just that they will never have the same level of immediate knowledge as we do. epistemologically, their position in society (and your identity influences how you know things) prevents that.
  - VoiceOfReason555
    
    You don’t understand what it’s like to be a man, and have to put up with the constant hostility of feminism, which undermines your issues of sexism that you experiences, and tells you how much privilege you supposedly have, but which you never actually see.
    - http://www.robotsandlace.com/ Jess Mary
      
      please show me evidence of systemic sexism against men. besides father’s rights shit (actually rooted in sexism against women) and college (which is bullshit when you break the numbers down.)
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        I already posted a comprehensive list on another post of sexism against men. But every single issue was either undermined or diverted.
        
        Please tell me how fathers rights “shit” is rooted in sexism against women? It is men who lose their children, and have to pay for them. IT is men who lose their assets to greedy women. Do you think this following video is rooted in sexism:
        
        If not, please explain why. Please explain how this is sexist towards the woman, and not the man. Please explain how the woman in this video is suffering, and not the man. Please explain why this woman is not exploiting the system for her own benefit.
        
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYb5xSd4PRs
        
        Also, please explain why the college enrollment issue is “bullshit” (can you not express yourself without swearing?).
        
        Do not divert attention to other issues like feminists usually do. You not use sarcasm while feminists usually do. Please address my questions DIRECTLY.
    - http://www.facebook.com/alisse.desrosiers Alisse Marie
      
      I don’t know how you want us to respond to this. Having to put up with the “constant hostility of feminism” is not even close to being on the same level as actually being oppressed.
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        You are not oppressed. I do not oppress you. Men do not oppress you, more than other men. There is no conspiracy against women that oppress them.
        
        If you disagree with this, please provide evidence.
      - http://www.facebook.com/alisse.desrosiers Alisse Marie
        
        No one is accusing YOU of oppressing anyone. But men, as a system. Men oppress women to this day.
        
        There is more to oppression than being forced to marry a rapist (which still happens; source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-17379721) and being prohibited from voting (source: http://www.newstrackindia.com/newsdetails/147). The world exists outside the United States, where we have been able to push past these.
        
        I don’t know how you can sit here and tell me that gender oppression does not exist when things like this are going on. Even in the US, where we have the right to vote and don’t have to marry our rapists, women have not been allowed to move forward in the fight for equal (read: not special) rights.
        
        Our bodily autonomy is constantly being threatened by the government (source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/14/fetal-personhood-virginia_n_1276824.html) (here’s another source: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/29/us/virginia-senate-passes-revised-ultrasound-bill.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all) (another one, for good measure: http://www.thepoliticalguide.com/Profiles/Senate/Pennsylvania/Rick_Santorum/Views/Abortion/). By the way, those all violate this thing called Roe v. Wade which protects women’s privacy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v_wade)
        
        We STILL make 70% of what white men make, at the same job with, yes, the same amount of experience (http://www.iwpr.org/publications/pubs/the-gender-wage-gap-2009). Not to mention, women of color make even less than that, so there’s a little intersectionality for you.
        
        That, my friend, is oppression. Denying people their rights to privacy and fair, equal pay is oppression. The fact that these rights still need to be fought for is horrendous.
        
        You can pop right the hell off back to reddit or askmen.com or wherever the hell you came from because your unsourced, misogynistic, condescending bullshit is not welcome here.
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        Please look at the following video, endorsed by Feminspire, and explain LOGICALLY how it is NOT hostile towards men:
        
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2ME8sR-bnY
        
        Please read the following hate-filled article and explain LOGICALLY how it is NOT hostile towards men?
        
        http://rageagainstthemanchine.com/2009/07/05/why-i-hate-men-part-1-and-then-it-hit-me/
        
        Indeed, your last paragraph itself is hostile towards me – as a man – by use of the word “misogyny” and telling me that I am not welcome here. Just because I’m concerned for the hostility that feminism shows towards men, and because I’m concerned for mens rights which feminists ignore, does not make me a “misogynist.” Me having a different opinion does not warrant you telling me I am not welcome here.
        
        Here is a challenge for you – Please explain to me CLEARLY and CONCISELY what makes me a “misogynist”.
        
        Please do not create any more diversions. Address my questions DIRECTLY.
        
        This discussion is about FEMINIST HOSTILITY towards men. It is not about abortion, racial issues or the so-called pay gap. It is not about the divorce courts, suicide rates , college enrolments or any other of the myriad of issues that effect men (which are ignored by feminists). I repeat, in case you didn’t understand…It is about FEMINIST HOSTILITY. Please stick to the issue (I know you feminists have a hard time doing that, but please at least just try). Again, in case it didn’t get through to you – please address my questions about the issue DIRECTLY, otherwise I can no longer engage in a civilised discussion with you.
      - http://www.robotsandlace.com/ Jess Mary
        
        This article is about the ways that feminism benefits men and men’s place in it. This article is about abortion, the pay gap, divorce courts, etc. YOU changed the subject to feminist hostility, so don’t get on your soapbox about ‘sticking to the issue.’
        
        Yes, some feminists are hostile to men. Some MRA are hostile to women. What is your damn point? I’m sorry sometimes your feelings get hurt?
        
        Also, you have backed up NONE of your arguments with a reputable source. Show me evidence. Start using logic (and learn what eugenics is before you use it as an argument.) You want to have a civilized debate? Fine. I want to have an intelligent one, but I don’t believe that you’re capable of it.
        
        You’re welcome to hang out and read, but we’re not obligated to make you happy. We’re not obligated to go back and forth with you.
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        I will spell it put to you again because you CLEARLY you do not understand:
        
        The article states that feminism benefits men. I disagree with the article, because feminism is hostile towards men and is not there to help them. DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW? I provided clear EVIDENCE of this hostility. No one is changing the subject except you.
        
        You are telling me to use logic…this is hypocritical because your own logic has a major HOLE in it:
        
        Firstly, you yourself stated that feminism if here to help men. I correctly pointed out that feminism is hostile towards men, which you admitted. If feminism is here to help men, how comes it acts hostile towards them? Contradiction! To cover up this hole in your argument you resorted to sarcasm “I’m sorry sometimes your feelings get hurt.” If you are here to give me help, why do you not care about my feelings?
        
        Do not pretend for an instant that you have any desire for a civilised debate. You have intentionally misunderstood my point, created a diversion, and used sarcasm. THAT IS NOT A CIVILISED debate.
      - http://www.robotsandlace.com/ Jess Mary
        
        I understand perfectly what you’re saying, I just disagree. You can disagree with me. That’s fine.
        
        Feminism isn’t actually intended to benefit men, it’s there to raise women up and overcome societal inequalities. We’ve made a LOT of progress towards that. I like to think we’re almost there!
        
        But, as a side effect, a lot of stuff happened that has benefitted men. I fully believe that there are ways anti-racist movements have benefitted me, but it doesn’t exist for my benefit, and when there’s hostile feelings towards white people, I’m not gonna discredit the whole movement.
        
        I’m not actually being sarcastic when I say I’m sorry you’re feelings got hurt. I really, truly am. I do believe the most effective way forward is for everyone to remain as non-hostile as possible, but sometimes it’s hard (and you’re being hostile here too, so maybe we should ALL take it down a notch.) I wish you could be a little less sensitive.
        
        But I don’t really feel the need to go back and forth with you because it’s not getting me anything. I don’t really feel the need to convince you of anything. You’re just one person, and maybe you’re lost to my cause. That’s cool. You, likewise, are not going to convince me of anything because you’re not backing up your arguments, which are often just statements with no reasoning, with any kind of data. The wage gap is a myth? Really? Show me the numbers and I won’t just dismiss that statement out right, but you didn’t. That’s not evidence, sorry. Coupled with the fact that you claimed feminists had a program of eugenics against males because we just get sperm that looks like brad pitt? That’s just so over the top and absurd. Look around you–plenty of ugly men had loving wives and families. Why? Because they have good hearts and good personalities and treat their partners with respect. I think my boyfriend is incredibly sexy, but that’s not why I’ve been involved with him for more than a year in my life, I’ve been involved with him because I have fun with him, I love talking to him, and he respects me even when he disagrees with me. When you make huge overarching statements like feminists are currently engaging in eugenics, it makes me dismiss everything else you say. Not because you’re a man, but because if I were arguing with someone and I said something like “the sky is red!” or “there’s a secret plot by the american military to destroy antarctica!”, no one would take me seriously, even if everything else I said was true.
        
        This is the last time I’m going to engage with you, simply because I’m bored with this and in my own personal life I have people who I can have the discussion with who are not parroting the same things over and over and over without giving me any facts. There are people who challenge me and who make me think critically about my beliefs, but you’re not one of them.
        
        Enjoy reading!
      - Fawn
        
        Is a cancer ward hostile by only treating cancer patients? Why not tuberculous patients, burn victims, or head trauma patients?
      - XYZ
        
        No but then it does not claim that it benefits tuberculosis patients as well.
      - http://www.facebook.com/alisse.desrosiers Alisse Marie
        
        “This discussion is about FEMINIST HOSTILITY towards men. It is not about abortion, racial issues or the so-called pay gap. It is not about the divorce courts, suicide rates , college enrolments or any other of the myriad of issues that effect men (which are ignored by feminists).”
        
        Bro, you told me to provide you with evidence that women are still oppressed. I did. Is that not direct enough for you?
        
        Wanna know why we’re hostile towards you? Because you’re fucking hostile as hell towards us. Funny how that works, isn’t it?
        
        Happy Women’s Equality Day, by the way!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://www.nwhp.org/resourcecenter/equalityday.php
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        Your discussion about “oppression” was nothing but a diversionary tactic. You were the one who made first mention of “oppression”. I fell into your trap by responding to it and asking you to provide evidence. This was a mistake on my part…I should have picked up on your diversion straight away.
        
        I have only been mildly hostile. Considering that I usually only diss out what is given to me, I have been extremely generous in the amount of respect I have provided for you. The hostility you have displayed towards me is several times greater. I have not been swearing at you, unlike what you have to me: “Because you’re fucking hostile as hell towards us”. I have also not used hostile sarcasm against you, like you have to me “Happy Women’s Equality Day, by the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
        
        I have provided a civilised refutation of your flawed propaganda. For you to accuse me of hostility is at best hypocritical, and at worst and outright lie (like the original blog post).
      - http://www.facebook.com/alisse.desrosiers Alisse Marie
        
        In fact, though, it was you who diverted the topic.
        Jess Mary: “I still think that men will never understand first hand what it’s like to be a woman and how women feel and carry the constant sexism we feel and see around us.” (read: oppression)
        You: “You don’t understand what it’s like to be a man, and have to put up with the constant hostility of feminism” (read: diversion)
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        The original article was propaganda about how feminism helps men. My response to this article is the hostility that feminism shows towards men, and hence it is not here to help men.
        
        How many times does that have to be spelled out? You are not five years of age.
        
        Jess Mary created the diversion by talking about oppression, which has nothing to do with the main point of the original article, nor my response to it.
      - http://www.facebook.com/alisse.desrosiers Alisse Marie
        
        Are you kidding me with this “how many times does that have to be spelled out?” crap? We have been repeating the same things to you over and over again for the past month and you still don’t get it. Or you refuse to. Either way, you’re being childish and bratty. I honestly do not understand why you KEEP COMING BACK HERE if you disagree so much with what he have to say.
        
        This website is a safe space for women. Men are more than welcome to comment and even to disagree with us but when your whole schtick is hunting down every feminist article on the website and starting a hostile debate, yeah, we’re going to be pretty fucking angry.
        
        YOU are the one who has initiated every one of these “”"conversations”"” and you did so with the intention of riling us up so you could make yourself look “calm” and “reasonable.” Because women are so ~crazy~ and ~illogical~ amirite?
        
        You’re a troll and nothing more. Your opinion still does not matter to me. I’ll be as hostile as I fucking please toward you because you have given me no reason–NONE–to be nice to you.
        
        PEACE.
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        Again, go back to my original comment which has been ignored:
        
        “You don’t understand what it’s like to be a man, and have to put up with
        the constant hostility of feminism, which undermines your issues of
        sexism that you experiences, and tells you how much privilege you
        supposedly have, but which you never actually see.”
        
        Sexism is not a one-way street. As soon as feminists realize that, then this hate movement against men can end, and the world will be a better place (I can only dream).
      - Fawn
        
        Hostility is not denying to make you a top priority in a group that is designed to help out someone else. Kinda get the feeling from you that you would complain about not getting enough attention on somebody else’s birthday.
      - http://www.facebook.com/alisse.desrosiers Alisse Marie
        
        And hang on a second–CIVILIZED DISCUSSION? This is you being civilized? Running around a website made specifically for women, telling women to shut up–that is CIVILIZED? You have got to be kidding me.
        
        You are something else.
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        Unlike feminists, I have not used swear words or sarcasm in my debate.
        
        Unlike feminists, I have not diverted issues. I have addressed everything DIRECTLY.
        
        Unlike feminists, I do not lie. I speak straight from my heart.
        
        Just because I have a differing opinion does not make me uncivilized. I have provided nothing but truth, facts and logic in all of my arguments.
        
        It is the feminist responses to my valid arguments that are uncivilized.
      - http://www.facebook.com/alisse.desrosiers Alisse Marie
        
        Hahaha
      - http://www.facebook.com/laurencslavin Lauren Slavin
        
        A direct quote from the video’s creator, who is a man: “Why haven’t so many other men spoken up on these issues before? We need to show our support for women who are fighting these issues.”
        
        Logically, this NYU film student is not against women.
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        So what! Many men support feminism, they have been fooled. It probably helps them to get laid by their girlfriend/wife/female peers or whatever.
      - http://www.facebook.com/laurencslavin Lauren Slavin
        
        I’m sorry, I believe you said one of feminists’ main arguments against MRAs is “YOU JUST WANNA GET LAID !!!1!!” in a response to a post of mine.
        
        But pretending to support feminism to get laid is okie-dokie?
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        No, they say to me “You just can’t get laid”. Don’t change words around to suit your argument. It is basically saying that the only reason I am against feminism is because I can’t get sex.
        
        Can you just imagine tonight I did “get laid”? Do you think that all of a sudden I would stop disagreeing with feminism?
        
        I will not support feminism just to “get laid”, which many men probably do.
        
        Please don’t twist things around.
      - Fawn
        
        If you believe in eliminating harmful male stereotypes, then claiming that male feminists do it just to get laid is not helping your case.
      - SirXblade
        
        Actually I completely agree with this, not every individual man oppreses woman but the Patriarchy does indeed oppress women! As a white male, I would like to appoligise for VoiceOFReason555 blatant misogyny, I really hope that this idiot voice does not speak for every guy!
      - McGauth925
        
        The article was aimed at men. YOU may not welcome us here, but the site itself does. That will continue to be hard for you.
        
        Women don’t make 70% of what men make. They make 77% of what men make. When you weed out the just causes for why men make more, we’re left with something less than half of the 23% discrepancy as being due to discrimination. That’s not fair. And, it’s more unfair than continually implying that women make 23% less than men, completely because of discrimination. But, that last bit makes us mistrust you. We’re a whole lot less likely to care about your issues, if we mistrust you.
        
        Your bodily autonomy. Men are forced to use their bodies to support the children that women had the right to abort, put up for adoption, or simply leave at the hospital. You should read what Karen De Crow had to say about that.
        
        I believe that men think things are much better for women in the US. We don’t feel as motivated to work on the rest of the world. It really does look like things are much worse for women in many other countries.
        
        But, implying that YOU are horribly oppressed because of what goes on elsewhere – I think you have a much smaller point with that than you seem to.
    - Sarah
      
      I don’t believe that feminism – as a whole, and as I personally practice it – is constantly hostile towards men. There are certainly certain factions that are, but there are different factions in every group that give the whole a bad name. There are several layers of sexism that define how both men and women are supposed to act and which oppress both genders, BUT many of the more negative ones are ones that more strictly and negatively affect women. Just as gender and sexuality are really more like spectra rather than two ends of polar opposites, I believe sexism is as well. Little boys are told they can’t like pink, they can’t be afraid, they can’t cry, they can’t be emotional, they can’t play with certain toys – while girls are told they can’t like blue, can’t be brave, can’t be tough, have to be emotional, or play with certain toys. The people in power tend to be men, so men are given more freedoms than women, but sexism hurts everyone.
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        Well why don’t you speak against those factions that are hostile towards men? I don’t see you doing that. Why don’t you speak up against such hate filled-speech as this:
        
        http://rageagainstthemanchine.com/2009/07/05/why-i-hate-men-part-1-and-then-it-hit-me/
        
        She even has a second part to it, so filled with hate she us:
        
        http://rageagainstthemanchine.com/2010/02/18/why-i-hate-men-part-2-guys-take-up-space/
        
        Am I supposed to just ignore that, and not see it as an issue?
        
        And please tell me these so called “freedoms” that men who are not in power have, because I am not aware of them. Maybe if you make me aware of them, I can go and experience them and then agree with what feminists say.
- http://www.floralinguist.com/ Kaya
  
  there is a large school of thought that argues that sexism cannot be against men because it is comprised of power+prejudice, much as you can’t be racist against white people. i would say that somebody could be prejudiced against a man, but it’s not on the same level as systematic, societal oppression.
  - http://www.robotsandlace.com/ Jess Mary
    
    however–men on an individual level can be hurt by systemic sexism against women. that’s why I think saying men can’t be raped–which is rooted in sexism against women and gender roles–is an example of how sexism can hurt an individual man.
    - http://www.floralinguist.com/ Kaya
      
      oh, absolutely! I totally agree w/ your overarching point that EVERYONE is hurt by systematic sexism against women.
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        If men are hurt by sexism against women, then wouldn’t it be logical to state that women are hurt by sexism against men?
        
        Do you agree with this? If not, please explain why.
  - Sarah
    
    I believe that white people can be the victims of racism, it’s just a lot less prevalent, at least where I live.
    - Niamh
      
      I think you might be confusing “prejudice” and “racism”. Yes, white people can experience prejudice from non-white people, but it is not racism. Racism is prejudice PLUS power, and as white people hold the majority of power in the world, this is just not possible. Racism is made of systemic oppression, which white people have never ever experienced at the hands of another race. “Reverse racism” does not exist.
      - Sun
        
        Hmm…why do they hold majority of power?
        
        Where are you screaming that Chinese people are racist for holding the majority of power in China?
        
        This shit is embarrassing.
      - Niamh
        
        Lol.
- Siobhan
  
  Agreed.
http://www.floralinguist.com/ Kaya

I especially love the point about alimony. Yesss.
trufax

Ok so there’s room for the menz, but for WOC, not so much.
- http://www.robotsandlace.com/ Jess Mary
  
  no, I think feminism needs to include WOC. more than it needs to include men. and just as I think men need to take a back seat when it comes to women’s rights and let the women’s voices be heard, I think white people (myself included) and white feminists should take a back seat when it comes to racism and let woc’s voices be heard. Marginalizing WOC is a major weakness of feminism.
  - VoiceOfReason555
    
    So in other words, you’re saying that men need to be silenced when it comes to womens rights? They shouldn’t have an opinion?
    - http://www.robotsandlace.com/ Jess Mary
      
      Yes, that’s EXACTLY what I’m saying. Or…not at all. Are you being willfully obtuse for a reason?
      
      I think men have the right to an opinion and nobody should ever be silenced. But just as it would be highly obnoxious for me, a white person, to tell a black person how to experience/combat racism, it’s obnoxious for a man to tell me how to experience/combat sexism. Telling men that they have to listen to the voices of women to be true allies and accept sometimes that a woman has an understanding they might not is not silencing them, except in your weirdo worldview.
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        It is also obnoxious for a women to tell a man how much privilege he has because he is a man, and how likely he is to rape a woman because he is a man.
        
        It is extremely obnoxious for a women to tell a man how feminism is helping him. Feminists don’t understand what it’s like to be a man and experience the constant hostility of feminists, for no reason at all (except for being a man).
      - majorstranger
        
        But you do have more privilege than a woman and it is more likely that you’ll rape a woman so…shut up?
        
        Like, I’m not even getting your point here AT ALL. It’s like you slithered your way over from the underbelly of Reddit just to be annoying and contradictory. I do not give a single fuck if you experience hostility from females due to their frustrations with men. It’d be like me saying “Oh black person, stop being so angry with me. My race has only kept yours down for centuries upon centuries and you still struggle every day but hey, I really don’t want to hear it.”
        
        When women stop being raped/assaulted, when we don’t have to constantly worry about our safety based on what we’re wearing or what time of the day it is, when politicians stop trying to force us to have the babies of those men that raped us and then force us to allow rapists to have visitation rights, when we have a choice of whether we want to abort a parasite or let it grow to become our baby, when women can finally earn dollar for dollar what men earn in the workforce instead of 71 cents to every dollar, when people stop writing and talking about how women SHOULD earn less, and this list continues on into eternity. Until all that happens, we will not stop fighting and I will certainly not apologize for coming off as rude to a neckbeard who can’t even see his own privilege and whose chief complaint in life is that feminists are so constantly hostile to him. Poor fucking you. GROW A BRAIN.
      - Reality Check
        
        the problem with this though is that this is going about it completely the wrong way, I agree that Voice of Reason is an idiot. but “Oh black person, stop being so angry with me. My race has only kept yours down for centuries upon centuries and you still struggle every day but hey, I really don’t want to hear it.”So wait its perfectly fine and acceptable for a black person to lash out at me just because of their justifiable anger toward those that have oppressed them even if I had nothing to do with said oppression. thats just blatant generalizations and you know it! I support racial equality and I really do think that a lot of black people are awesome people. and I believe they have every right to be angry about racism, I just don’t believe that using that anger in a negative way is going to help prove their point. and its the same way I feel about Womens Rights! I completely support the right of every woman and I find it absolutely disgusting that a lot of men tend to have a negative viewpoint of feminism because I personally believe that the majority of feminisms are both pro woman and man!
        
        However the the problem I have with your statement is that it reeks of misandry! Just because I am a white male doesn’t mean that I am proud of having “privilege” or that I want to likely rape women. Why on earth would I personally want to rape women? I mean really are you that thickheaded? Let me guess Hetrosexual relationships are rape, or To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he’s a machine, a walking *****
      - majorstranger
        
        OMG you straight white men are so self-absorbed it’s unreal. THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU. I am not saying that you love raping women in your spare time but that you are, statistically, more likely to rape someone than I am. It does not make me a big feminist meanie if I tell you that. I’m simply reiterating facts.
        
        You clearly didn’t even read what I wrote which is evident by your egregious misquoting. Allow me to assist:
        
        What I said: But you do have more privilege than a woman
        
        What you claim I said: Just because I am a white male doesn’t mean that I am proud of having “privilege”"
        
        Commentary: I never said you should be proud to have privilege. In fact, you should be pretty ashamed regarding the privilege you have because that privilege means that you are currently holding institutionalized power away from another group of people. You only need to RECOGNIZE that you have privilege and live your life in a way where you try as hard as possible to level the playing field for everyone.
        
        What I said: it is more likely that you’ll rape a woman
        
        What you claim I said: Just because I am a white male doesn’t mean that…I want to likely rape women.
        
        Commentary: I never said that you personally want to rape women or that all men want to rape women. Again, THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU. I simply said that you, as a white male, are more likely to rape than any of the ladies commenting and writing here on Feminspire. Do yourself a favor and do a quick Google search and you’ll learn the same exact thing.
        
        Finally, people who are systematically oppressed by another group have every right to be angry and frustrated with said group and the institution. However, this does not mean that I condone violence or unprovoked verbal assault on anyone (and you’ll notice, I never said that I do support that). But, when you come into a feminist, all-female space and begin to spew falsehoods and straight-up offensive insinuations (like VOR has been), we, as the oppressed group, DO NOT have to treat you with kitten gloves. We don’t even have to explain to you why you’re wrong if we don’t feel like it. It is your job, as the party with the most power, to go and educate yourself or shut your mouth and listen to what the party with the lesser power has to say. If you cannot do that, then you have no place being here.
        
        To tie this back into my original example, if you were to make crazy, unsupported claims about black people and then act bewildered and victimized when a black person lashed out at you, I certainly would not feel sorry for you and I certainly would not suggest that the black person in question calm down and be nice to you. No one is required to tolerate ignorance, especially when it’s at an extremely personal level.
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        But this is about me, because you stated “…and it is more likely that YOU’ll rape a woman so…shut up?” I do not mince with words.
        
        What you said was nothing but an accusatory and hateful comment. Statistically, I am not more likely to rape a woman than what you are. My odds of raping a woman are ZERO. You can not get less odds than that.
        
        For you to say that I have privilege just because I am male is an outright lie. I worked hard at my low income job before travel. I definitely didn’t automatically get into a CEO position just because I’m a man – it is hard for EVERYBODY to get into those positions. All these priviliges you speak of are only enjoyed by a miniscule % of men.
        
        And I have been assaulted before as well. I also worry about walking after dark.
        
        “But, when you…begin to spew falsehoods and straight-up offensive insinuations…”
        
        What, like feminists do all the time? Like you have by stating I am more likely to rape because I am a man?
        
        “It is your job, as the party with the most power, to go and educate
        yourself or shut your mouth and listen to what the party with the lesser
        power has to say. ”
        
        I do not have any more power than what your average woman does. It is sexist of you to assume I have more power, just because I am a man.
        
        To conclude – You are a hypocrite and a man hater. You are hostile and rude. And above all things, your logic is completely flawed.
      - majorstranger
        
        “Statistically, I am not more likely to rape a woman than what you are. My odds of raping a woman are ZERO. You can not get less odds than that.”
        
        WRONG. This is why health/auto/etc insurances are higher for some demographics of people than others. Based on statistics, certain groups of people are more likely to do/have/whatever certain things than others. I really don’t understand how you’re arguing about this right now. I’m a psychology major for fuck’s sake and have spent many years intensely analyzing statistics. It’s what I currently do for work, in fact, so why don’t you just trust me and stop arguing this bullshit.
        
        I’m not going to even read the rest because it’s just too outrageous. You just don’t GET IT, VOR, and I doubt you ever will. It’s truly sad.
      - Fawn
        
        NEWS FLASH. The wealthy are another privileged group, which is why you don’t think you fit the term “privileged”.
        
        Do you feel like you don’t have as many opportunities as a wealthy person? Yes? Then congratulations because know you now know what it feels like to be oppressed.
        
        Rich, white men rule the world. I’m assuming from everything you wrote that you are a poor white man. Thus, you feel like you are oppressed, but you misguidedly attribute that to being a man.
        
        However, if you took some time to educate yourself you would realize that your oppression could be worse.
        
        If you were a black, you would have to deal with racism, and if you were a girl, you would have to deal with sexism.
        
        It seems like you have a hard time understanding that sexism against women is a real problem though. Like the prevalence and social acceptance of cat calling, and unwanted groping. How people would objectify you based on the clothing you are wearing or the amount of alcohol you are drinking, that those would be grounds to rape you. Then you would have to deal with people who don’t believe you are raped, and assume you are lying or make excuses for your rapist. Many people don’t even know what rape is. Some think that if you are passed out drunk, that it doesn’t count as rape. Based on statistics, it is likely that your rapist will never go to jail.
        
        As for your life if you actually don’t get raped, sex isn’t all that enjoyable. You are held to an expectation that you will not have sex, lest you be called a slut or a whore, even if is with your partner. And sometimes you are called a slut if you are a virgin. You might be called a slut simply for the clothes you wear, the way you talk, or even because your breasts are large. How are you supposed to enjoy your sex life to the extent of a man?
        
        Speaking of, you will need birth control for. Which in some areas, even in Western society are not easily acceptable, especially for the poor. If you have to choose between one expense over the other when money is tight, it’s likely that you will choose food or other necessities over birth control. This leads to the risk of pregnancy.
        
        Let’s face it, pregnancy is not always 100% preventable, even when using birth control responsibly. If you get an unwanted pregnancy, congratulations abortion isn’t legal everywhere.
        
        If the guy runs out on you, you are stuck with a child, in poverty now. Wonderful. That will decrease your chances of finding a job, or seek higher education to get a good job. Fantastic.
        
        You will likely end up on social services, but before you say something rude like “stop being so lazy and get a job”, look up something called the poverty trap. It is something that mainly affects single mothers, and it is the difficulty to escape poverty due to financial advancements result in being in a different earnings bracket, which takes away any financial aid which results in no improvement on the financial situation.
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        Feminism is not pro-man. It never has, and I don’t think it ever will.
        
        If feminism was pro-man, it would – as a whole – denounce such comments as “To call a man an animal is to flatter him; he’s a machine, a walking *****”, and many of the other hate filled misandric comments by feminists.
        
        I am yet to see feminists as a whole denounce those comments.
        
        The very fact that they are telling us we are more likely to rape because we are men is itself a hate filled comment. How is such an attitude as that beneficial to men?
        
        You are calling me an “idiot” simply for speaking out against the sexism and lies that is spread against men by feminists.
      - majorstranger
        
        You are more likely to rape. Why are you not understanding this? This doesn’t mean you will or that you want to but that, because you are male, you are statistically more likely to. I’m more likely to kill my own child. These are just facts. I do not understand the disconnect here and I am tired of repeating myself.
        
        I do not think that men are machines and walking penises and in fact, no one in the feminist movement DOES believe that. Saying that implies that men are not responsible for their actions and it is used to explain away things like rape and sexual assault without putting the onus on the perpetrator. You really and truly need to read up on feminism and stop making wildly inaccurate assessments about the movement.
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        The argument has gotten well out of hand and it’s not getting anywhere, because you feminists constantly change the subject. You divert attention away from the original argument, and then make out I am the one doing so. It is immature.
      - Fawn
        
        It helps if you have a sound argument to begin with. Majorstranger was more than patient with you in trying to give you the explanations and attentions you are so obviously lacking.
        You are still making wildly inaccurate claims without even making an attempt you inform yourself before you speak.
      - Fawn
        
        It’s extremely obnoxious to tell a man how likely he is to rape a woman because he is a man…yet above you wrote that male feminists are just in it to get laid.
        You are perpetrating a negative male stereotype yourself, so don’t blame feminism if you are part of the problem.
http://www.facebook.com/laurencslavin Lauren Slavin

Awesome argument! Here’s a neat idea a male feminist is attempting: http://ad00dsguidetofeminism.wordpress.com/
- http://twitter.com/thultner Trevor Hultner
  
  updated link!
  http://deardudes.wordpress.com/
Annelien

Very well written-, concise and easy to understand! Love it!
VoiceOfReason555

My answers:

1) A

In addition to that, they have also introduced an eugenics program against men.

2) C

Men indeed have no rights in custody battles, and it is one of the main reason why a MEN’S RIGHTS MOVEMENT is essential.

3) A

Feminism only looks after the interests of women..

I see right through the purpose of this article – undermine the mens movement by falsely declaring that the feminist movement is concerned with the rights of men. What rubbish! Women already have more privileges and benefits then men in society, and all feminism does is serve to further increase these privileges and benefits. For example, there are more women enrolled in college than men. Instead of increasing the number of men in college, feminisms aims to further increase the enrolment of women.

Do not patronise me and do not insult my intelligence.Your whole post is nothing but a diversion.
- http://www.robotsandlace.com/ Jess Mary
  
  I’m not insulting your intelligence, you are. And I am not sure why’re you’re taking this so personally. I think you’re fun, VOR, but I’m not going to write an article for you alone (sorry.)
  
  1) You can SAY that there’s a eugenics program against men but that doesn’t make it true. Proof, please. Also…do you know what eugenics is? Because I don’t think you do. It really makes no sense when you have a conception of what eugenics is.
  
  2) I believe that men should have rights in custody battles (though it’s unfair to say they have none) and I think it is compatible with feminism. The fact that you feel the need to state this just shows to me that either you didn’t read the article, or your reading comprehension skills are weak.
  
  3) Why should feminism be more concerned with the interest of men? Just because feminism exists doesn’t mean that organizations that focus on issues that face men can’t!
  
  “Women already have more privileges and benefits then men in society, and all feminism does is serve to further increase these privileges and benefits”
  
  So we make more money than you, do not have our rights to control our bodies impeded on a daily basis, are not sexually harassed when we walk down the street, never die anywhere in the world because of lack of access to abortion, can drive in every country in the world, and are not punished legally for being raped in every country in the world?!!! GREAT. Let’s break out the champagne!
  - Sarah
    
    Your last paragraph is what I always think about when people claim that there is no sexism or that there is no sexism against women. Someone tried to argue on the comments area of a feminist Youtube video that women are treated better than men because they get free drinks. Now, let’s think about this. If a woman gets free drinks, you have to consider the source. If a guy buys her a drink, it is very likely he is trying to get in her pants (either through romance or outright daterape), or to buddy up to her to try to get her to date him. Women can and do buy men drinks for the same reasons. If the bar itself gives women free drinks, it is probably a promotional event or system in place that is trying to bring more customers to the bar through A. free drinks (gets the gals), B. drunk or tipsy women who may be more receptive to dating or sex or vulnerable to date rape (this gets the guys, both the good ones and bad). So ultimately, even this looks more like pandering to men than to women. I have yet to find a real argument for no sexism or no sexism against women that you couldn’t poke so many holes in that it didn’t look like swiss cheese.
    - VoiceOfReason555
      
      You feminists turn every single issue into one against women, no matter how illogical. Free drinks are just one of the many perks of being a female that they can exploit. They are not helpless damsels who are likely to be rape victims, as you insinuate…women enjoy all these perks. If men were able to go to a bar and get free drinks, I’m sure you would definitely blame the “patriarchy” for that.
      
      I provided a comprehensive list of the sexism that men experience in a previous thread, and no one “poked so many holes” in it. Instead they undermined these issues and diverted the attention away.
      - majorstranger
        
        “Instead they undermined these issues and diverted the attention away.”
        
        You mean they proved you wrong. Stop blowing your hot, stinky air all over Feminspire.
        
        Oh, and I for one don’t enjoy those perks so stop insinuating that women do. I wanted to be treated normally, not have lesser or special rights. I don’t want my gender to factor into anything: be it rape rates or drink purchasing (Which, by the way, I’d be happy to trade you rape rates for all the free drinks of your dreams).
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        I’d be happy to be able to get all the perks that feminists do, all the while being able to whinge about “oppression”, so I can get even more perks by the government (which I can continue to complain about, because I am allowed to be selfish).
        
        Get off your high horse. Not a single issue I mentioned was proven wrong. A lot of what feminists say has been proven wrong by rational MRA’s, but this evidence is dismissed, in the same way that Nazis dismissed any information that was in conflict with their own brainwashing agenda.
      - majorstranger
        
        DID YOU REALLY JUST COMPARE US TO NAZIS?! I cannot even. Not only did you invoke Godwin’s Law, the well-known last refuge used by someone in an argument when they have nothing substantial to say, but you just told a Jewish woman that she is being Nazi-like. THANKS FOR THAT, BRO.
        
        Also, I’m not sure what special government perks women are getting. Would you please let me know? I’d really love to claim them.
        
        One last note: are you from Canada or the UK? I couldn’t help but notice you said “whinge” which is not how it’s spelled in the US. If so, you know nothing about the struggles of a group you are not a part of, in a country you do not even live in.
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        I guess the truth hurts.
        
        Minus the violence and the gassing of Jews, their are many similarities between feminism and Nazism.
        
        * Descrimination against individuals based on their genetic code
        * Breaking the target group away from their families
        * Organised lies and propaganda against the target group
        * Promotion of hatred against the target groups “Women need men like a fish needs a bicycle”
        * etc.
        
        Read:
        
        http://www.angryharry.com/esFeminismandNazism.htm
        
        Bringing all these similarities to light doesn’t undermine what happened to the Jews. Instead, it brings about awareness of the organized discrimination against men thet feminists perpetrate.
      - River
        
        I’m for feminism…with all the phytoestrogens we’re devouring from chemicals, and soy we’re all going to be chicks soon anyway
      - Fawn
        
        - “Descrimination against individuals based on their genetic code”
        
        Women are discriminated against as well, does that make those groups “Nazi like”? Also you know that the Nazis identified/labeled groups (men, women, ethnicity, and sexual orientation) so that they would sort them into the groups they wanted to terminate so they could create the “perfect race”? Feminists do not kill people. Feminists want to be treated like we are human beings, and want laws and social norms to reflect that.
        
        -”Breaking the target group away from their families”
        
        What on earth are you even talking about? If you are referring to the decline in the nuclear family, you are seriously confused. Feminism has done two things. In its first wave it allowed women to vote. In its second wave it allowed women to work. That did not separate the nuclear family. People are completely free to marriage and arrange themselves in nuclear families if they want to. You know there is a difference between causation and correlation. If feminism removed the ability for the nuclear family to be formed legally, then that would be an example of how feminism is responsible for the decline in the nuclear family.
        
        - “Organised lies and propaganda against the target group”
        
        I’m going to need a citation on that. I don’t even know who you are referring to in this claim, or what you are claiming the lie is. By the way, this point isn’t specific enough for you to make a respected comparison, it’s so vague it could be about anything.
        
        And if you actually found those so called lies and propaganda they could probably be easily disputed.
        
        - “Promotion of hatred against the target groups “Women need men like a fish needs a bicycle”
        
        I don’t know why you are getting so offended by this. The point this quote is making is that women can be independent. Anyone who would be offended by a women who is independent is obviously threatened. Perhaps you are angry that dependent women are more easy to control?
        
        As for your last paragraph. No you are completely wrong. Comparing the holocaust to something like this is offensive. It’s a stupid comparison. Think about what you are actually saying. According to you, a group to help women’s rights is comparable to a group that murdered Millions of people. That is psychotic.
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        “One last note: are you from Canada or the UK? I couldn’t help but notice
        you said “whinge” which is not how it’s spelled in the US. If so, you
        know nothing about the struggles of a group you are not a part of, in a
        country you do not even live in.”
        
        Australia. Feminism is rife in my country, so I have experienced it first hand.
        
        You know nothing about the struggles of men either, and the descrimination they have to experience due to feminism. You have no idea how it feels to be silenced on such issues by the media and government. So DO NOT go around running your mouth about how much privilege I have and how much feminism helps me. Do not patronize me with your compulsive lying and shaming tactics. Do not give me your intellectual techno-babble to make yourself look smarter than me.
      - http://www.facebook.com/alisse.desrosiers Alisse Marie
        
        How fucking DARE YOU compare anyone to Nazis that aren’t, you know, Nazis themselves. “Feminist hostility~~~~~*” is in now way comparable to the Holocaust.
        
        You are such a piece of shit.
      - Fawn
        
        You honestly looked at that entire paragraph of problems women face and say that being bought alcohol is a perk? Are you really that delusional?
        You realize that first of all, you buying us drinks is completely OPTIONAL, unlike being raped. You absolutely do not have to buy us drinks ever. There, you are now free of your obligation, that was never there.
        Second, you realize that the only reason why it became the social norm for men to pay for dates was because of the social norms and gender roles. Men were the breadwinners and made more money than women, so they courted her. And guess what? Men STILL make more money than women, thus that social expectation is still in our culture.
  - VoiceOfReason555
    
    “1) You can SAY that there’s a eugenics program against men but that
    doesn’t make it true. Proof, please. Also…do you know what eugenics
    is? Because I don’t think you do. It really makes no sense when you have
    a conception of what eugenics is.”
    
    The feminists eugenics program works like this:
    
    * Get women into the workforce
    * Tell women that they “don’t need a man”
    * Tell women that they have “choice” of who they can marry and they they don’t have to settle for someone second best (e.g. Someone who is not like Brad Pitt).
    
    As a result, we end up with many career women in their late 30′s who have no children and whose biological clocks are ticking, and they can’t find a man “good enough” to settle down with (though, they were many good men they could have settled down with who were ignored when the woman was younger).
    
    This is where technology comes in: Because the woman is told all her life how she is “independent” and doesn’t need a man, she will think that she can do it all alone. She will then go to a sperm bank, where she can choose from such factors as nationality and HEIGHT.
    
    So in the end, the best looking men are able to pass on their genes without even doing anything, AND getting paid for it.
    
    Left, there are many good men who are not able to find a wife and child, because the vast majority of western women have went to such a sperm bank
    
    All the rest of western women either:
    - Marry someone who looks like Brad Pitt
    - Falls pregnant to a druggy/gangster/criminal/thug or other such low quality man
    
    Whether it is purposeful or inadvertent, it is still an eugenics program in place.
    
    “2) I believe that men should have rights in custody battles (though it’s unfair to say they have none) and I think it is compatible with feminism. The fact that you feel the need to state this just shows to me that either you didn’t read the article, or your reading comprehension skills are weak. ”
    
    My apologies, I misunderstood the quiz question. I didn’t notice their was a NOT in it (I was tired when I read it).
    
    “3) Why should feminism be more concerned with the interest of men? Just because feminism exists doesn’t mean that organizations that focus on issues that face men can’t! ”
    
    Why should feminism be more concerned with the interests of women? It is a one sided venture.
    - majorstranger
      
      You have such a sad “Nice Guy” complex going on. It’s really hilarious and impressive that it fuels you do go as far as you have.
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        Yes, insult the person sending the message and not the message itself. A typical tactic from the feminist mental arsenal. HIDE THE TRUTH AT ALL COSTS! Even if you make yourself look stupid.
      - majorstranger
        
        I’m insulting the person because the message is a fabricated fantasy that the person created. If Tom Hanks suddenly went in an interview and said “All women have 18 boobs” then I would say that Tom Hanks is an idiot. Get it yet? Why do you have such a weird conspiracy theory complex going on about feminism. We’re not the fucking Men In Black.
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        My message was quite simple and straight forward. Not a single thing I said was incorrect or exaggerated. I specifically implied that it is probably inadvertent. There is no direct conspiracy theory, you are just putting words in my mouth.
        
        If you want to talk conspiracy theories, feminists are the ones who bring up conspiracy theories of how men repressed them. That is the most “fabricated” fantasy of all.
        
        You feminists have proven time and time again that you can not have a sensible debate. You just twist everything around to make things look as though you are correct.
    - Fawn
      
      Were you dropped as a child? This is assuming EVERY women can afford to do that? Do you have any idea what in vitro costs?
      And this is assuming that this will happen in the future, and is NOT happening right now? And you expect that feminism will bring this about with no evidence whatsoever?
      
      You sir are completely loony.
  - VoiceOfReason555
    
    “So we make more money than you, do not have our rights to control our
    bodies impeded on a daily basis, are not sexually harassed when we walk
    down the street, never die anywhere in the world because of lack of
    access to abortion, can drive in every country in the world, and are not
    punished legally for being raped in every country in the world?!!!
    GREAT. Let’s break out the champagne!”
    
    - The wage gap is a myth.
    - What do you mean by the right to control your body? Women in western society have good control over their body. They can pretty much pick and choose which man to have sex with. Men don’t have this choice (unless they look like Brad Pitt). I’d say that men are the ones who don’t have control.
    - Sexual harassment is blown out of proportion. If a man tells a woman she has a nice ass or something, she acts like it is the worst thing that has ever happened to her. Do you want to know what’s worse? Being ignored by the opposite sex altogether. I’d like you women to experience that just for one week, so you know how it feels. (I experience sexual harassment in Thailand from prostitutes who want my body AND my money [for women in western society it is just their body that is wanted], and it sure as hell feels better than being ignored by women. I also experience sexual harassment from Thai transvestites, but I at least have empathy for them, because I understand what it is like to not have my body desired).
    - Nobody should die ANYWHERE for lack of health care. It is not just abortion, but many other issues that effect MEN and WOMEN. But from feminists you only hear about the women.
    - Driving is dangerous, especially in those countries. The male death rate on the roads is higher.
    - The woman who are raped in other countries (even if the numbers are blown out of proportion) really do need fighting for. I’d respect feminists a lot more if they actually put as much effort into fighting for such women as they do in expressing hostility towards western men.
    - majorstranger
      
      LOL you sound really lonely, VOR. I’m beginning to understand why you spew this bullshit rhetoric. Someone is very sad that they can’t get laid/still live in mommy’s basement playing WoW all day/can’t make more than women because they can’t get any job aside from working at the local Friendly’s. It all makes sense now.
      - http://www.facebook.com/alisse.desrosiers Alisse Marie
        
        HAHAH i fucking love you
      - majorstranger
        
        Love you too, girl. It’s really so sad tbh. I truly pity VOR. It’s very clear through his comments that he’s just super bitter that he’s ugly and can’t get laid.
        
        For the record, not many men look like Brad Pitt (except for Brad Pitt) and I still let them get it. In fact, I love shlubby, scruffy, chubby dudes. It’s not all about attractiveness and even if it were, attractiveness is hugely subjective (hence, why I’m NOT attracted to Brad Pitt). VOR’s lack of female attention is less about women becoming too independent and ~feminist~ to care about seeking out a man and more about them choosing not to associate with a piss-poor attitude combined with a misplaced victim-complex and an unparalleled ability to make everything About Them.
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        I am not interested in getting laid by feminists. I prefer to get laid by REAL women, who don’t go around with a victim complex and spread hate and lies about men.
        
        A lot of women like my attitude, thank you very much.
      - majorstranger
        
        It really show.
      - majorstranger
        
        It really show indeed.
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        Yes, let the feminists all band together and hurl insults about my alleged my sex life, just because my opinion differs.
        
        How mature.
      - majorstranger
        
        You sound bitter.
      - Fawn
        
        You inferred and insulted male feminists for ‘just doing it to get laid’ (paraphrasing).
        So what does that make you? Mature?
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        Here we go again, bring up the “You can’t get laid” argument. How original!
        
        I suppose next you’re going to tell me that I have a “small dick.”
      - majorstranger
        
        Well, if the condom fits.
      - VoiceOfReason555
        
        How mature.
      - majorstranger
        
        Never claimed to be.
- http://www.robotsandlace.com/ Jess Mary
  
  The idea of eugenics is to promote a “healthy and cleaner” gene pool by forced abortion and sterilization. It actually cannot, scientifically, be used to eliminate men.
  
  The fact that you would come at me with such a poorly thought-out statement suggests that A) you’re trolling B) you’re a feminist enjoying themselves being a parody of MRA C) You truly believe it and therefore all your positions are bunk because you have never thought anything through.
  
  If you’re going to continue this debate with me, please have facts, logic and reason, not overblown smoke and mirrors rhetoric. I will only respond if there’s something worth responding to–consider my silence proof that I do not respect your argument.
  
  In addition, there is a group of men feminists hurt. They’re the ones who don’t feel like they’re capable of playing on the even playing field when women are introduced and need their societally-enforced dominance. They know they are mediocre and will sink even further. Unfortunately, I’m more concerned with what’s right.
http://www.facebook.com/laurencslavin Lauren Slavin

On the topic of free drinks, let’s check out Urban Outfitters new line of graphic T’s!

http://shine.yahoo.com/fashion/urban-outfitter-8217-t-shirts-glorify-drinking-just-183000893.html

“I Drink. You’re Cute.”
“Vote Vodka”
“I’m a Fucking Zombie”
“I am : Drunk, Horny, High, Stoned, Fine, etc., All of the Above (checked)”
“Misery Loves Alcohol”

These are shirts that inspire the idea that women are liquor-guzzling bodies “wanting” more liquor/a good fucking that they may or not be able to consent to.

Now, there is no one pressuring women into buying these shirts (Most of them are $30 and made of flimsy cotton.) But low self worth because society WANTS them to WANT to date someone who looks like, say, Brad Pitt, might.

The CEO of Urban Outfitters is a conservative man who has donated large sums to Rick Santorum (http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2012/apr/04/facebook-posts/facebook-post-claims-urban-outfitters-ceo-backs-sa/). Santorum is strictly pro-life. Does that mean if a woman who decides to buy and wear this shirt is viewed by men as “asking to be raped,” she should be forced to keep a child if she is raped? That is, if her body doesn’t shut that whole thing down.

Women should be encouraging other women that they are worth more than a drunk body, and a culture that doesn’t encourage drinking as a social lubricant needs to be established. How does that harm men?

Sure, buying someone of any gender a drink could be a way to break the ice. But why start the conversation, “Hey, you’re smoking” ? Why not say “I saw you and wanted to strike up a conversation.”? That is respectful, doesn’t imply a bargain being made (drink + compliment = sex), and, I agree, is much better than being ignored.

You know what’s even worse that being ignored? Ignoring the fact that sexual assault statistics are completely out of proportion. As in, far underreported. http://www.rainn.org/statistics

The statistics that say a terrifying high percentage of college men would rape a woman if they “knew they could get away with it,” or feel more comfortable admitting they would “pressure a woman into having sex,” hurts men and women.
http://savp.vassar.edu/facts/rape-on-college-campuses.html

These aren’t unsourced fanatical comments made by manhaters. These are valid concerns made by women who want a better world, not only for themselves, but for the men with whom they share the world.
- VoiceOfReason555
  
  Western women make a choice to go out and drink, wear skimpy clothing and act like skanks. Their is no victimhood at work here – the are just simply behaving badly because society doesn’t hold them responsible for their actions. It is asinine to blame men for this.
  
  Re: Being ignored by the opposite gender:
  
  Do not change the issue to something unrelated. The fact is, it is much worse to be ignored by the opposite gender to receive unwanted attention. There is absolutely no argument against this. But since you are so keen to change the issue, most rape statistics are blown out of proportion:
  
  http://www.angryharry.com/esTheHomeOfficeCaughtStirringUpHatred.htm
  
  This is down for no other reason to stir up hatred against men, and paint them as enemies and women as victims.
  
  Most rape reports are false (which is why they get thrown out of court in the first place). These women love to paint themselves as victims, it is a way to get attention. Read this article with an open mind (if you are capable, that it). It is very convincing:
  
  http://www.angryharry.com/esMostRapeAllegationsAreFalse.htm
  
  The report you provided about college rape is based on bogus studies. 27% percent of women have been raped (or attempted)? What a ridiculous statistic! Sweet Jesus…you only have to touch a woman a certain way, and you feminists consider that rape with these surveys. If you were to show these studies to a REAL scientist, he/she would have a heart attack at the way they were conducted.
  
  And never forget, about half of women are liars (are the other half lying, perhaps)?
  
  http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/139/139613_women_lie_cheat_and_steal.html
  
  Women are the masters at deception, and they are proud of it. After all, feminists have been deceiving most of humanity for decades.
  
  “These aren’t unsourced fanatical comments made by manhaters.”
  
  Oh yes they are. Feminists have a huge influence on school policy, which harms young boys. This goes on into the colleges, where young men are harmed by all the false statistics.Read this article (again with an objective mind, if you are capable):
  
  http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2000/05/the-war-against-boys/304659/
  
  Girls in school are most definitely not victims, they thrive and that goes on into high school and colleges. I personally have noticed this. Many boys get teased about certain things, and even sexually assaulted – but no one listens if you are a boy because feminists paint boys as the main perpetrators, so if you are a boy it equals evil.
  
  Have you ever read The War Against Boys, by Christina Hoff Summers? It is an eye opening read. Many feminists have been known to change their tune when they have young boys, and realise that they too have emotions, and that they too experience difficulties.
  
  All you feminists need to get off your high horse, stop acting hostile towards me and other men, and just realise that women are not the only victims here. And STOP this propaganda that feminists are here to help men. THEY ARE NOT. Feminists have been nothing but a hinderance to men.
  
  You feminists need to STOP blaming your gender for all your problems, and stop calling discrimination just because a man has something that you don’t. It is just immature. There are benefits and difficulties for each gender – you feminists want to keep the benefits from being female, and have the benefits that men get as well. You want everything. You feminists, quite simply are selfish creatures. Things balance out…there are things to enjoy about being a woman, and there are things not to enjoy. Same as with a man. That is life, so just live with it.
  
  You feminists are simply beyond reasoning with. You don’t use logic. You are not a spreader of truth. And the only evidence you can provide is sarcasm, irrational emotions, diversions, bogus studies with bogus statistics, swearing and insults (“you just can’t get laid”).
  - Fawn
    
    -”It is asinine to blame men for this.”
    So if I see a Western man who makes a choice to go jogging half naked on my block in those skimpy jogging shorts (over the knee and everything) I should feel entitled to cat call him, grope him, grab his butt, grab his genitals, rape him, or sodomize him?
    
    -”society doesn’t hold them (women) responsible for their actions”
    How about society doesn’t hold men responsible for their actions? How prevalent is it for a man to get away for sexual assault and rape? The majority of rapists will never go to jail.
    
    -”it is much worse to be ignored by the opposite gender to receive unwanted attention”
    First of all that is an asinine comparison. Second, if you don’t experience this unwanted attention, then you are not one to speak on how it compares to lacking attention. You truly are ignorant if you think sexual assault is just minimal when compared to being lonely.
    
    -”rape statistics are blown out of proportion”
    
    No they aren’t. Your source is unreliable and biased. Unlike you, unbiased sources support the claim that rape is a serious problem, a universal problem, and is way more prevalent to occur against females than males. Check crime statistics per country to debunk this crap myth.
    
    -”Most rape reports are false”
    You are so sorely mistaken it isn’t even funny. Once again your source is biased, so check your facts.
    
    - “women are not the only victims here”
    
    Who ever said that? No one here ever said that. But you are in a FEMINIST blog, on a feminist article with feminist commenters. The whole point of feminism is to help women. We do that by finding out how women are negatively affected and raise awareness about it? How the hell is something ever going to change if it is never talked about? Do you not see the relevance of a child’s welfare group caring about only child’s problems? A child welfare group is not “hostile” towards adults. I don’t know why you find that so very hard to comprehend.
    
    - “You feminists are simply beyond reasoning with. You don’t use logic”
    
    I have yet to hear a logical argument, let alone thought from you. You don’t research before you talk, you didn’t read the article, your sources are biased (and it’s likely you didn’t read those either), and you simply do not understand what has been told to you over and over again.
    
    Feminism is for women, a child could understand that. Feminists accept that MRM is for men. What’s so hard to understand about that, seems pretty logical to me.
    
    “insults like (“you just can’t get laid”)
    You have a comment on here saying that you think that male feminists are only doing it “to get laid”. So don’t even start with that. You are just a hypocrite.
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This was a well-written article. And I loved the clarity of some of the points. But here are some of the general things that push many men away from support:

-”Feminism” The very name itself implies that women are the only priority this movement has. In most cases, men aren’t discussed unless it’s from some negative, thick brush because of what the powerful have done.

-Patriarchy is not so much all-encompassing power for men. It destroys any power men of low socioeconomic status have. It degrades those who can’t get the power. Men who need help forfeit their right to it.

The problem was not that men were jerks, and putting them in power screwed over society. The problem is that many men had to fight for power to not be expendable, and we raised men on apathy, which is thus how they ruled.

-Me and almost any man I know is not having some luxurious life compared to women, and feminists need to acknowledge that instead of telling us we are “so swimming in privilege we can’t see it.” and tossing our view, our problems, and our statistics aside using the title “privileged class.”

-And I don’t know much of any man who actually sees women as lacking in capability. We simply don’t think women are second-class citizens like feminism seems to so often claim. And the idea of this is insulting and repulsive. We bicker of course, just as women bicker about men. The difference is that the latter is now politically-correct.

But anyway, I don’t want this to distract from the main goals you suggest feminism has. I share these values, but refuse to advocate for only one gender. Therefore I don’t claim the feminist label. “Gender equalitarian” maybe? I just think for myself, hear ALL perspectives, not just one or my own, and treat people as best I can: Man or Woman.
- Ennoia
  
  -So whenever you adopt a label because you support a cause, that means that you as a person have no other cause you support at all? Because that seems to be the reasoning behind the criticism of the term ‘feminism’. I don’t see anyone attacking children’s rights advocates about how it
  seems like ‘all they care about is children’. …Because nobody is
  consciously or subconsciously assuming that more rights for children
  will take away some of their own liberties.
  
  Because even if it were to the exclusion of being passionate about other causes (I and many other feminists are living proof of the opposite), the only way someone could see having the things that concern women as a main priority as a bad thing is if they thought that the things that benefit women are *things that will disadvantage men*.
  How is more freedom, more power, more safety and more autonomy for women bad for men? Because more fairness and less violence against women = The Girl Reich?
  
  -And that’s where your second point comes in: the patriarchy and how it doesn’t ‘automatically benefit all men and actually some of them fall through the cracks’. Are you being seriously serious? You do know what the word ‘patriarchy’ means, yeah? It means that women are born into the absolute DEFINITON of ‘not so much all-encompassing power’ (what a phrase!). I have to use caps because that should be glaringly obvious without anyone having to say it.
  
  Nobody ever said that “Men are jerks and therefore putting them in power is bad”. You do not understand what feminism is about, apparently. Let me try to put it as simply as possible: “The idea that ANY group of people should be more in charge than others across the board is OPPRESSIVE AND WRONG. It does not matter whether this group consists of men, women, whites, blacks, or sexless Martians with antlers and wings, it is WRONG. The group that IS in charge *happens to be* MEN, and white men in particular, and we want to change that so the world is fair for everybody”. What about this message warrants your caveat that ‘men aren’t jerks, the system simply makes us apathetic’? Please, please explain that one to me!
  
  - Privilege does not mean that you have a luxurious life, or that you are visibly better off than the women you know. I’m sorry to have to tell you this, but the very fact that you argue this way shows that you ARE blind to your privilege. Yours is the privilege to not have a double-digit likelihood of rape or attempted rape. The privilege of being governed, judged, and policed by people overwhelmingly ‘like you’, with no prejudice against you. The privilege of not being screwed over when it comes to your salary or promotions. Of speaking your mind and being taken seriously. Of not being called a gendered slur when you express justified anger. Of not having to fight for the right to decide over your own body. Of seeing non-stereotypical and non-objectified representations of people like you in the media. Of not being judged for having sex, for not having children, for having children as well as a job, for not wanting to be pregnant, for wearing the clothes you like, for not shaving, for being too fat, flat, tall, small, young, old, or for not wearing make-up and uncomfortable shoes. The privilege of not being stared at and undressed by a stranger’s gaze or threatening obscenities and vulgar compliments from leering strangers on your way home. Of not being looked down upon and thought of as lesser or subhuman by a large percentage of the world’s population. Of being believed when you speak of your experiences or of a crime perpetrated against you. Of traveling alone safely, no matter where in the world. I could go ON AND ON, believe me. And then we can’t even say that men are a privileged class compared to women? SERIOUSLY? Again, I have to use caps, because you have missed some huge fucking parts of the world.
  
  - And the fact that you cite your personal opinion of women and opinions of men you know as a reason for women to ‘stop complaining already’ because *nobody* thinks of women as lacking in any department is the most ridiculous thing I have read in a long time, and the ultimate proof of your privilege. “I don’t see any sexism, so it must not be real.” You are dismissing the daily experience, heck, the LIVES, of millions, of billions of women on this planet because your personal experience doesn’t reflect the things women the world over are saying, and statistics that prove that women are at an extreme economic and political disadvantage in this world. And the goal we ‘suggest’ feminism has is precisely this: to open the eyes of the likes of you to just how much damage you can do by simply standing there with your hands in your pockets. No single man is the oppressor, but a great big mass of willfully blind and apathetic benefactors of oppression is just as bad as direct oppression. Please get a fucking clue what feminism is about and why it exists, then get off your ass and *actually* do something for gender equality by acknowledging where the inequality lies and where it comes from. We are actually talking about this stuff for a good reason. Hint: It’s not because we are bored and need something to complain about.
  
  Then, and only THEN, can you ever claim to have ever tried to hear all perspectives and care about men and women alike. Because right now, you are doing no such thing. As the article says: if you understand it, there is no reason not to support it–unless you want oppression to continue.
http://www.awesomepreneurship.com/ Rachael Kay Albers

YES!!! This article is amazing and SO comprehensive, Jess!
Mr P.

as a male my knowledge of sexism is not ‘second hand’. I watch open-mouthed as the media accepts violence against men commited by women; sit helplessly as my workplace appoints female senior roles which are disproportionate to the gender ratio of the workforce; am bombarded with continued attacks on traditional male characteristics in modern tv and drama. Those are my first-hand experiences as a young male in a western democracy.
- Siobhan
  
  Women are and have been the victim of sexism and oppression for far longer and to a far greater extent then men for millennia. You may have exprienced some sexism toward men in your life but it cannot be compared to that of a woman. There are no modern societies that could be accurately be described as a matriarchy or even as not a patriarchy. Go up to an African American and tell them how much racism you experience because you’re white and see what happens. Would you not see how ridiculous that would be? It’s the same situation. Women are still in slavery! (They are 25 times more likely to be sex slaves than males are). *not saying you are white, but I am so I’m using an example relevant to my life.
  - Fawn
    
    I absolutely agree with you Solbhan. I find it very suspicious that men were perfectly happy and not feeling as if they were oppressed until Feminism, and then Men’s Rights Activists were born.
    I also find if VERY suspicious that the KKK was formed the very same year the slaves were freed.
    
    To me it sounds like the MRA was just a petty rebuttal to feminism, and to this day they bash feminism, instead of trying to actually solve men’s issues.
    I feel like MRA are very misinformed and misguided, as they have no idea what feminism is about, no clue about the history of women’s oppression (and thus a relation to how privileged men are in comparison), and no idea how privileged they are now.
    And by the way, no, I don’t mean to say that privileged means “you have no problems. What I mean is that there are groups that are commonly known to be universally more privileged than others and those groups are White, Rich, Men.
    Yes, you still have problems, but no, you aren’t being oppressed.
    - McGauth925
      
      Seems to me that women APPEARED to be pretty happy with both gender roles until the Women’s movement -the one in the 60s – started. Women needed their consciousness raised, was the thinking. They needed to learn about their oppression. Men weren’t allowed to question their gender roles any more than women were, before then. Watching women do that, left and right, naturally led to men doing the same thing. We simply learned from you. It’s not all a cover for backlash and resistance.
      
      I dislike the hatred I see at MR sites. It allows people to ignore men’s issues. BUT the Women’s Movement has become a huge issue for men. Equality – no problem at all. The biggest men’s issue is the attitude that many women and feminists have about men. There is quite a lot of animosity towards men, only we’re not supposed to call that misandry. Basically, we’re not supposed to talk about it at all. The fact that it exists, that it’s omnipresent, and that it’s very strong is pretty much denied. When it’s not denied, it’s justified, even if the man facing it wasn’t involved in oppressing women for millennia.
      We’re supposed to listen to all that as being directed at the institution of men, not at us personally. Somehow, that’s supposed to make it all ok, even though that attitude towards the institution has a huge negative impact on millions of individual men. Imagine being told that misogyny isn’t about YOU personally, but about the “institution” of women. If the personal is political, then the political is personal. Why do you expect men to buy that? The omnipresent answer: because it’s so much worse for women, – and the unspoken reason is that talking about men’s issues distracts from those of women. If we hear about men’s issues, we won’t think women’s are so much more important.
      
      And, yes, that pervasive attitude towards men is much more recent than we’re told misogyny is. That doesn’t make it less widespread, powerful, and unfair to men.
      
      The other main issue is that women expect men to care about women’s issues but, THEY DAMN WELL DON’T WANT TO BE CALLED ON THEIR OWN SEXIST BEHAVIOR. Racism doesn’t justify an individual black person behaving towards me in an overtly prejudiced way, based simply on the fact that I’m white. Women make up the majority of humans in the US, and they are are far more sexist than they want to hear about. That makes them actually a hugely sexist force to be reckoned with. The result is, it’s only ok if women are sexist. Sorry, but the history of sexism and misogyny doesn’t excuse women from sexist behavior and attitudes. Do as I say, not as I do? I don’t think so.
      
      Because women think of themselves as oppressed victims of misogyny, it doesn’t appear that they realize how powerful feminism is. As has been stated, it’s changed, and is changing, absolutely everything, and in a remarkably short period of time. I think sometimes, that that’s the biggest divide about gender issues between men and women: men are likely to think if’s hugely powerful, and women, not so much. Thus, women are likely to think that the effect they’re having on men is inconsequential, compared to the effect that men have had on women. Historically, YES. Here and now, present day? Sorry, but I see that one differently. To me, it looks like women have huge power, that they need to keep convincing us they don’t have, so that we’ll see the need to work exclusively on women’s issues.
      
      I
LKA

Just because it has benefits doesn’t mean it doesn’t come with consequences. The MRM exists because men have issues with discrimination and feminists have told men that it is their responsibility to work on them, not feminists. You either do something or someone else is going to do it because you didn’t. Don’t get mad if some people choose to create an movement to address the issues that your movement didn’t. Sure the rads do not represent the movement but neither do these pro men’s issues feminism. Feminism exists completely independent of men’s rights and cannot be counted on for support against these issues of discrimination of men. Just because various gender roles are no longer held against women doesn’t mean that the same isn’t held against men.
Economic independence is important right up until women are controlling vast majority of consumer spending despite women not needing men’s money or loss of assets in family court and financial obligation being paid mostly by men.

Men don’t have much more control over reproduction than women do either, we can’t have birth control medicine like women due to feminist opposition which could have been of benefit to women too. Nor do men have the option of legal paternal surrender like women.
If your a woman shouldn’t you also support men’s rights? “How can you claim to love someone or care about someone and at the same time advocate against a movement dedicated to giving them human rights?”
You say that men will never know what first hand sexism fells like yet there are rights that should be supported by law for men and responsibilities forced by law that shouldn’t. Just because our sexism isn’t like yours doesn’t mean it isn’t real. If my opinion, as a man, about the extent and nature of the problem is not valuable when the specific problem pertains to women’s experience then vice versa.
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Sun

“Feminism is not about hurting men…”

I stopped reading right there.

Sorry, I just couldn’t take anymore of your bullshit. I can’t believe anyone actually buys this.

(no I’m no a MRA either…both are opposite sides of the same coin).
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Why can’t it just be gender equality? The problem with men’s rights is that it often insults feminism – I’ve seen the blogs, the forums, they’re full of anti-feminist and sexist comments and jokes. Some feminist blogs also have the anti-man (it’s just a joke!) thread as a constant reminder of why I’m in the minority as a self-described feminist in Australia. Neither needs to attack each other! But men’s rights should not focus on the horror of feminazi’s, but on father’s rights, banning circumcision, breaking down violence and alcoholism in male culture and and liberating effeminate men from the bullying their non-typical characteristics afford them.

Good article though!
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Something that really bothers me about the criticism about feminism is that the “they don’t care about men” argument isn’t well thought out, and is extremely arrogant.

Yes, I know that men have problems too. But feminism’s goal is to help women. It’s awfully arrogant for someone to complain that their top priority is not helping men, and it only furthers the argument that there is STILL oppression against women because we cannot even have THIS, a group that is made for us.

It’s like expecting a charity especially for disabled foster children to help out non-disabled non-foster children. Or a group that fights for social problems with African Americans that is told that it “doesn’t care about white people”.

The sad thing is, in those other examples, people would easily identify that doing that is wrong, EXCEPT when it comes to feminism.

It is absolutely 100% OK for Mens Rights Activists to fight for men’s issues, I will never debate you on that. But when you try to make feminism twist it’s priorities in favor of men, it just proves that women, yet again, are being silenced. And people need to understand that this is what happens to oppressed groups.
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http://twitter.com/DailyPlebeian Daily Plebeian

So, men should be for feminism because it allows them to shirk filial responsibilities and otherwise avoid having offspring? So you argument boils down to my dick? Maybe you could re-write this in a way that does not insult my intelligence.

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